One of the Cavern sound guys, upon noticing the large amount of, um, constructive criticism on here about the Cavern's sound, decided to write us a letter. Here it is:

Re: Sound at the Cavern

I just wanted to tell you a little about the p.a. system at the Cavern and the people who operate it. The p.a. system was installed last September when Spune Productions took over as booking agent/talent buyer. Glen Squibb is the production manager at The Cavern and Hailey’s Club. He works with Daughter Entertainment and Spune Productions. He selected the very best components for the p.a. with the Cavern’s budget, with most of the money invested in an Allen & Heath GL2400 console and Turbosound speakers. It is actually a good system for a small venue like The Cavern. One night, I walked in to the Cavern to see Mazinga Phazer II and this band from NYC called Downtown (very disappointing). Anyway, the sound was awful. I mean really bad. Glen wasn’t there that night. You see, Glen does a great job. He is the main sound guy at Hailey’s, so whenever there was a Hailey’s show he would have to find someone to cover his job at the Cavern. The guy that was there that night didn’t know anything about audio. So I started helping out. Long story short, in March I started running sound at the Cavern whenever Glen is at Hailey’s. So far, I have had no complaints. In fact, I have received many compliments and a few bands have requested I tour with them. I will do my very best to make the bands sound their very best. I love working at the Cavern and I hope to help make the Cavern the very best little venue in Dallas. The owners have been very helpful. I suggested that they relocate the A/C unit so that the electromagnetic field doesn’t get looped back through the p.a. system (it used to be above the stage). They spent $500 to relocate it two weeks ago. The Cavern makes ZERO money off the door. All the door cover goes to the bands and a few $$$ to the sound guy. I don’t do bookings, but I know that it is hard to always have stellar bands every night. That’s why there is the occasional shit band. We don’t like it either.

Cordially,

Josh @ The Cavern

MY djs know how to behave themselves.

who are your djs?

i hate when my dj's have opinions. Play more music jukebox boy and stop talking. Iskander is dumb as a brick and contributes nothing to dfw denton music.

hey i am too lazy to read all this.. hey kwanza, why dont you just move to bklyn like you thought you could and leave everyone alone.

so that it is not anonymous...

this is JOHN ISKANDER

dont make me post your whiny-emo emails like i did a year or two ago.

enough already.

next time i see you i am bringing you tissues.

Shit, I don't even want to get in to the booking problems I've experienced at the cavern. I guess I just did, well I don't wanna elaborate, but I probably will.

someone's in a shitty band that the cavern won't book.
i wonder who it is?

I had the pleasure of playing w/ Burnt Sienna at the doublewide, and I loved it! the banjo has an effect on me that makes me uncontrollably down whiskey shots.

burntsienna trio..ahhh
We played with them at the porch a couple of weeks ago and while watching i felt this feeling something was actually happening.
then a drunken encore came.
you guys missed it-
LM-

Yes, we're supposed to be firing at The Cavern not at Wanz. Read people!

Don't stop posting. I'm not putting the blame on you or anyone else, I just realized that there are two really long comment threads right now and they are both about you. This shit is supposed to be about me, damn it!

But please, keep posting and keep discussing, and I'm not going to start deleting peoples posts or anything unless it gets really REALLY annoying. I just think we should all move to new topics, dig?

maybe I should just stop posting. I want to be part of the discussion, b ut I don't think it is possible. Sorry to cause such a fuss stonedranger

yeah, I think I'm starting a new rule around here:

no comment threads may start or end with discussions about Wanz unless the post actually has something to do with Wanz.

I'm gonna start laying various smacks down.

JC is an excellent soundguy and recording engineer. He's also a helluva nice guy. Jimmy is the guy at Dan's. He's a wonderful soundguy, but he can be a complete asshole if you piss him off. It's fun to piss him off.

this is getting downright masturbatory now

finally some good solid advice. You make a good point. The reason I quit booking shows years ago was because I got sick of the scene politics and popularity contests when I just wanted to make music and that is what I will do. Cheer mate!!!!!!!!

and to bring this all full circle... i love you mwanz, and i think you care more about music than just about anything else (i feel similarly, in fact)... i dig your music, i LOVE your dj sets (i go to the cavern and sit in the back at least a few times a month on tuesday at the cavern... and i don't really enjoy the bar staff there... i just like hearing what you're going to play b/c i know i'll learn about some random new band than i haven't heard of before or some track by a band i love that i'm not familiar w/.... you live your life for something other than you, and that thing is music.... anyone who does that is going to feel like they are getting the short end of the life-stick sometimes (myself, although i pale in comparison to your passion, it seems, included)... i just want you to know that some of these words (if not most of them... can't speak for everyone else) are coming from a great admirer (secret admirer, as it would be) and not someone who is a "hater"

...you have done enough in your years to not have to defend yourself to anyone... so don't... and don't be the guys who baits people by talking about how "missunderstood" you are... are you? maybe... but let other people decide if they think they understand you or not

...your part is as a facilitator and creator of art. Sometimes it's best if you let the things you do speak for you instead of you speaking for the things you do.

ok, that last one felt harsh... i guess i'm just saying that (and it would seem people agree here) Mwanz can be a little too defensive and it's just wierd that we get these looooong posts about how much "hate" is around, when it really doesn't seem like anything other than the results of perhaps your (mwanz) own paranoia than anyone really hating you that much....

...it just seems a little overdramatized, like anton newcombe or some shit...yeah, i know you feel misunderstood, i know you think "im such an awkward geek"... but if you were comfortable w/ that then it wouldn't be anything you felt you should defend

.... when every post ends w/ "bring it on" or "bring on the hate" or something along those lines... what do you expect to happen?

...don't make predictions that upset you when they become reality.

...not to overanalyze... but i think you're using more defense mechanisms than i can count

Mwanza does.... i guess

re: the comment about the comment "grabbing cred/blog"

I didn't mean it as anything but helpful. I think Wanz is solid, but it was a goofy thing to say.
Living well is the best revenge. Who gives a fuck about scene politics and being cool?

you people are twits

In summary, the cavern sucks. The End.

drummer singing...asking for mic...dickhead soundman...that must be you Sean.

OK.BYE BYE

"If I ever grab for a little cred on this blog"

Nobody... should ever ... you know, say stuff like that.

fucking drummers shouldn't be singing anyways. They should be carrying equipment and driving the van.

he was probably sober. he gets better if you buy him some shots.

weird, maybe it was just a bad night, he went off on my drummer for asking for a mic for his vocals.

oh how could u soil the name of j.c. He is great and your right about burnt sienna trio. they are great.

he ran sound once for us at j&j's and made that 1985 peavey P.A. sound very good despite are horrid playing. He actually built a monitor out of schlitz cans and fashioned me a guitar string out of fishing line. ole j.c. is a genius

jc is the guy with long hair and sandals..he is a hottie and plays in one of the best bands in denton called burnt sienna trio. That fucker drinks to fucking much.

jc is awesome. And I hate everything.

is jc the young guy? with like long black hair? err
i think that guys name is like brett or something, he is a really awesome sound guy. if JC is the old guy at rubber gloves with REALLY long hair that guy is a dick

yes we did a fake band at the liquid lounge..our first song was called "all she needs is a good deep dicken" we fit in well

lets talk about mids...are sound guys scared of mids..

some good sound guys
JC. from Rubbergloves
the guy from Dans silverleaf

anyone else?

yeah,pretty girls,bar tab?you and everyone else think this way?
I'm not lucky there is a
sound guy.I would only have to walk over turn up the mids and totally fix the problem.for some reason,i hear a lot of muffled riffs coming outta those cavern speakers.it's not rocket science.
i have a better pa sound in my rehearsal room..a little less wattage of course..

Why is a bar or club going to spend the cash on a sound system when most the bands playing that place aren't going to pack the house so how do you really justify such a lease or investment? I'm not a bar owner, but those guys are always about the bottom line. Whether they are in it for the love of music or not. The Cavern's capacity is only so large, so I would say for a place that size, you're lucky they actually have a sound guy.
Don't like it? Well, I'm sure you can get a gig at Carson's Place. you may have to do a Yellowcard cover, but hey the sound's good, the girls are pretty, and you probably get a bar tab.

a sucky club system IS NOT the bands fault-
Let's face it,venues around here have one thing in mind when booking a band.An excellent sound system should be top priority to making top greenery.
owners always seem to take the easy way out and us musicians still get fucked w/shitty sound and end up walking off stage seeming like the asshole because we couldn't hear a damn thing-

Now all they need is a stage bigger than 10X10 feet.

i've never seen a band refuse to turn down their amps in all my years

the Hatin' comment has nothing to do with the airing of legitimate gripes. It's more of a reference to the timbre in which the complaint is delivered.

Is it hatin' or haytin' ?

Bands can be too loud for the room - if an amp is overpowering the PA and they won't turn down, you can't work with that.
And Wanz, I was being serious, thanks for your help!

"For those who complain about sound quality : why don't you go out and spend money on equipment after a few hundred dollars I'm sure you'll change your tune."
*Why don't you spend some money and get a soundsystem and maybe your patrons will change their tune.
" Leaving it up to someone else is a good way to be let down."
*If you're paying some brilliant sound engineer who SHOULD know the room, machines,levels, etc. a hundred dollars because that's his job then don't blame the bands because he doesn't know how to mix the room right. A band does not operate in this room all the time, the soundguy does. A soundguy shouldn't care if he likes the bands or hates the bands cause they're shitty. The soundman should make every band that performs there sound the best he can possibly make them sound. It is his JOB, he is employed and making money to do a JOB. It is not his job to not care and to complain because he doesn't like the band that was booked. Where the hell is the professionalism? The band showed up to do their job, PLAY- and the soundguy should show up to do his. Extra stars if the bands know how to work a PA, a lot of them do, but unfortunately they're not given the option of NOT using the soundguy if they don't want him. At this point my problem is not so much the sound but the attitude these people display. It's shitty when a soundguy doesn't like a band and so he just doesn't bother. It's dumb for someone who doesn't even own a proper soundsystem to jump into this debate at all. Call us "haters" or complainers but maybe take a clue that you could improve some things and we as the people that frequent your establishments are just trying to clue you in.

it could be a great club if it didn't suck so much. It is fun to spontaneously form a band just for the purpose of playing the most obnoxiously raw unpracticed stuff to the frat kids at open mic night! We got shithammered watching like 5 dave mathew/ green day bands and then we (silver colt 44 - only the greatest musical experience you never had) rocked with a guitar, vocal, a floor tom, and a snare. By the end of the show, I stabbed my snare to death and kicked it from the stage. That's when the Too Short covers started. yep, good times at the liquid lounge.

liquid lounge...how does the scar on dallas music stay open??

wait, is liquid lounge still around or did it die in the great EC purge of 2006?

you wanna' talk about shitty sound? Let's talk about liquid lounge for a minute. It's such a perfect little room, with the balcony and all. Kinda' like a baby Trees. They have a decent setup with nice monitors. why is it that the sound onstage is so consistently bad?

I've had a blast everytime at ave arts. it's great for art - love the byob status, and bands sound cool in there as long as they keep it down a little. plus the owner is a cool ass motherfucker...

ave arts has to be the worst byob club..besides lollipop stuff

this is Bub but I can't remember my password right now.

Right on about paying the FOH guy more. These guys work hard and late and then they have to listen to a lot of hatin'!

Mr. E, I think what you said about sound and the bands responsiility only goes so far. The thing is - a true musician is going to make the gig no matter what the obstacle, and you're probably not going to hear much whining. In a tiny club with no PA, or a small PA such as Cavern or Ave. arts it is MUCH more important for the musicians to balance themselves on the stage. It is almost always necessary for the Sound Engineer (who knows the room acoustics ,system, and hopefully some FOH tricks)to communicate this fact to the band or band leader. If someones got their 100 W guitar combo cranked to 7 on the front of the stage facing forward, you might want to say something instead of mixing around it. Usually musicians are more than happy to comply unless they're total retards, and from then on they will think of you as a wise soundguy who cares about their sound. It's all about communication. Unfortunately, there is never enough time to fully soundcheck everyone in the real world. quick linechecks are all most bands get, which is totally fine, but once those levels are set it's in the engineers hands. Most everything I've heard at the Cavern sounds fine, and I'm confident it will improve more over time. Josh and Glen, shake those hayta's off.

I wasn't bitching that it's Bud, just the quantity. If you want a happy band, let their broke asses get drunk!

those last two posts made me laugh my ass off. let's pay the soundguy $100 for putting up with crappy bands? THAT'S THEIR JOB! if they don't like it they can go work somewhere else- WAHHH! Hell, be a bartender there, it would be a step up form what they have. As for ave arts, do you even have a soundsystem?

if you want to get a good sound onstage at cavern(or most clubs for that matter) turn your guitar amps in towards you, NOT toward the audience. This provides the sound guy with more flexibility in the house sound. some bands are just sooooooo green. ughhh.

and I agree with paying the sound guy $100. probably more, you know why? they have to put up with crappy bands that need major attitude adjustments.

I hear alot of talk about sound . Most Bands / dj's don't know much about good live sound they could have all the best equipment at their disposal and still sound like crap. I don't think it's wise to blame the venue for an evenings poor sound quality.Ultimatly it's the performers responsibility to make sure they themselves sound good. if that means getting to the club early , learning more about pa or mixers , musicians need to take responsibility for the way their music is going to be heard. Leaving it up to someone else is a good way to be let down.
For the most part it sounds like the cavern is doing what it can to improve sound quality. How about alittle help from the other professionals(musicians). Would you play your whole set out of tune?
Kuddos to the cavern!
Bad bad musicians who blame their instuments or equipment for poor sound quality.
For those who complain about sound quality : why don't you go out and spend money on equipment after a few hundred dollars I'm sure you'll change your tune.

Agreed!

DEAD OR ALIVE.

seabass, magic mike rules as does that Rogers kit. droool!

ALRIGHT, SHIT.... everyone, today is "give mwanza credit" day... if he did anything for you ever, it's time to say "yo, dude... you totaly did that for me"... b/c apparently he's going to keep bitching and moaning untill everyone "understands how much he does".... dude, i'm actually a fan, but SOME PEOPLE do people favors b/c they want to help, NOT because they want to be able to talk about what a badass thing they just did

....sweet, you hooked the cavern up w/ some sound, that's awesome.... too bad the sound in that place sucks regardless.

come on glenn you told me the budget and picked out the allen and heath board. you wanted yamaha 15's and I adjusted to get you into better mains.
I made zero profit on that deal to make sure you guys could get better stuff and my commission is based on profit. Designed might be a bit strong considering it's a pretty basic setup, but you did let me pick out everything else. The A&H was all your idea and I worked around it. I saved you you guys a few grand and made no commission. Just doin my part. At least let get a little cred.

I noticed at the last Shapes show at the Cavern, Mr Spurlock's kick sounded like an 808. That is pretty next-level shit when you can mic a classic Roger's bass drum and have it bassing DJ Magic Mike style.

WAAAAAAAAA

I'm going to hold a show in a dumspter.

It'll be a little less crowded and the acoustics will be insane!

Plus it will be B.Y.O.B., so no slow ass idiotic bartender

We'll be pretty reasonable and can be compromised with

Book Notes from Underground we want to use your PA

If you really want to know what rape is then Club 8 is next store.

I don't see where the rape comes in. Slow bartender..WAAAAAA, served Bud..WAAAAAAAAAAAA, bad sound (unless the sound guy is reading the blog)...WAAAAAAAA.

The water thing I will give you, but what's the big deal? I'll agree it's not the place for national acts, but it's not like the owners of the Cavern arent reasonable people that can't be compromised with.

Here's my issue with the Cavern...

It's good to see local bands at, but it is NOT a place to book bigger bands. The place is HORRIBLE when it's packed to see bigger touring acts.

The sound isn't the best at times, but Glen does a great job with what he has.

The female bartender is a fucking spaztic moron. She takes forever, overcharges and ignores you for any guy waiting to stick his dick down her throat and thrust.

I guess those are my main complaints...
mostly the small cramped ass space to see bigger touring acts and the disastrous cunt of a bartender they have.

It provides an outlet AND rapes you- what more could you want?

And hence the true problem with Dallas. Despite having very little, everyone bitches about what's there that does provide an outlet.
So when is someone going to put their money where their mouth is and open a place with good sound, that doesn't charge for water, and doesn't feed the band BUD?

By "designed the PA", I think Wanz means he rang up the gear I wanted @ guitar center.
Thanks for the Behringer amps suggestion, really saved us money to stay within the budget!

More monitors would be nice. Also, maybe you could encourage the bands to reduce their stage volume a bit. I think that would also improve with a better monitoring environment. I think you're doing a great job w/ what you've got. It takes time to work out the kinks, and it's a tough room.

Now, on to the bar situation. I think 2 bud drafts in a little plastic cup for the band is kinda lame. If it's not cost feasible to just give the band tap beer all night, then how about a case of schlitz, or throw a cooler full of pbr on the stage. I think you'll quickly find that it's well worth the cost. This is an important factor to many touring bands and local bands, I think.

Now for the really ridiculous shit:

THE CAVERN SHOULD MOVE THE LIVE VENUE UPSTAIRS!!! chew on that.

fresh squeezed from a towel that just whiped off the bar.

Actually, Josh did a really awesome job for Voot Cha when we played there with Tunng.

He's a really nice guy and helped us out with some stuff

- Voot Cha

that is fresh squeezed dallas water that they have to go all the way to oak cliff to tap. you are getting a bargain SIR

j'j's was smart enough not to put the stage area(floor with no tables or thrift store furniture) by the front door.

yeah, that fucking girl charged me a dollar for water too!

isn't there a law against charging people for tap water @ a bar?

...and it's only downstairs that i get hassled about water... unless the same girl is working upstairs

...i mean, i get that the cavern is supposed to be all euro, but that doesn't have to mean that the wine is cheaper than effing tap water (i realize that isn't literaly true in the case of the cavern, but that ain't even 10 cents worth of water she pours into those red cups anyway)

thier is a p.a. It's older than that stuff they call pizza.

so does the cavern suck or is it good? I can't tell - quick weshotjr.com, tell me what to think.

lol cuz there is no PA

i think they should have went with the p.a. at j&j's in my expert opinion.

I like turbosounds better than the JBL's they could afford. They were originally looking at Yamaha's. The high end JBL's are better, but not the lower end. Turbosound are pretty bad ass. It's only my opinion(and the opinion of most of the Pro Audio experts at Guitar Center). Turbosound are more popular in Europe than here. They can handle more power than the Cavern is currently pushing through them. If they ever upgrade the amps you will notice a differance. I have been at Guitar Center for almost 6 years now. We have the great convenience of doing A/B tests on a lot of this stuff. If they could have afforded SRX series JBL's I would have gotten them into those. They had a strict budget and I got them the best gear I could for the the budget they had.
We ended up going with behringer power amps so we could get them into better mains than they wanted. The Allen and Heath Board took up a good chunk of their budget. That was a good Idea though. A few upgrades down the road would be very inexpensive compared to replacing a whole board. Now if I coul have gotten them into that new Mackie ONYX 25ch. Shiiiiit. All that being said. It's a good system for a room that size. They need better mics and cables, but that is being picky. Before this system they had 2 crappy yamaha 15's and a 200watt behringer powered mixer.

and $100 a night soundguys

if i ever build a club i will make sure to put the stage right at the front door and higher crack head bartenders.

The entertaining part of the evening for me is watching hoochie girls from the bar next door get past the door guy without having to pay. I wish I was a hoochie girl!

bartender = crackhead. fish eats crack rocks. maybe bartender makes soundguy charge $100 so she can charge him $5 for his beers and she can afford crack rocks. i dunno- that place is fuct.

mwanz -
in the design of the cavern's soundsystem, why did you opt for the turbosounds instead of the jbl mains?

when i played with voot cha there they tried to make me paid for water. :/ i had to show them pictures of voot cha on stage before the bartender would give me a glass of water, and she still was somewhat like pissed off at me.

also there is a retarded fish in the fish tank and he eats rocks and other fish's shit

I dont think Cavern has pbr they give bands BUD (2)

Ohhh, Zing!

does the sound guy get free beer, two beer tickets, pbr?

The sound guy doesnt get a little $$$ he gets a sizeable chunk, like $100 flat from what I hear, instead of a percentage. This hurts bands and the Cavern is the only place that has this policy in place that I know of. Shouldn't it be in the Caverns budget as a "club" to pay the soundguy? God forbid this should ever happen but what if a show were booked there and the bands didn't bring out that many people but still had to pay the soundguy $100? If that much wasn't made at the door would the bands have to pay out of their pockets? Not knocking the soundguy but Cavern has some issues, only one of which is the $100 a night soundguy. And maybe they need a lesson in geography because Shiner is not an import.

I know I will get shit for this because I always do on this blog, but actually I designed the PA for The cavern and sold it to them for cost. The pa is actually more than adequate for that size room. If the sound is bad it is usually because of the sound guy. Josh did a great job saturday. Glenn does a good job too. I had no complaints about the sound on saturday. They just need good backup sound guys who know the system.

Yeah, there are only two monitor mixes. We have three monitors but one has a bad driver. I have a QSC 1500a that I would bring up there if we can repair the monitor.

i don't think people complain as much about the sound out front as they do about the sound on stage..

there's only one monitor in the front. is there any talk of getting another? or a bigger amp for the monitors?

i know the stage is pretty small....

That was me running sound. That was a good show. All three bands were great. Sorry to hear about the cop fiasco. I'll talk to Neil and see if we can get a variance for loading & unloading.

Speaking of sound people, Metrognome Collective still needs sound volunteers, hangers of curtains, builders of bass traps, acoustic foam, etc. bad sound makes baby gnomes cry.

Also, if you want to donate a powered subwoofer, or another monitor amp, we would be forever grateful.

whoever was running sound at the blackarm, fra pandolf, silk stocking show did a great job. My only complaint is a cop threatened to throw me in jail for loading out my gear at 2 in the morning on Greenville. I don't see any other way to park your car to load out short of carrying your stuff three blocks.

this looks like its going to be standard procedure for now on outside the cavern from what the cop said.